Between 1999 and 2009 Lightsabre.co.uk brought news, fanfic, podcasts and much, much more to the masses. Our thirteenth guest played Nien Nunb in Return of the Jedi and in the sequel trilogy – Mike Quinn.
Lightsabre – Mike, welcome to Lightsabre.
MQ – Thank you Mark. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Lightsabre – What has it been like to be a part of the Star Wars phenomenon?
MQ – Well, when I first landed the job, I was already a big fan of the first two movies of course and like everyone else, I wanted to know how this trilogy was going to end. So walking on set and seeing all the new creatures and ships and all (they actually built most of the sets back in those days, as opposed to the heavier use of computer generated sets and ships they use now) was really exciting…. and pretty intimidating. All the principle actors were there in full costume just like I’d seen many times before at the cinema, it was quite surreal actually. So I knew I was entering part of something huge! I felt like the cat who’d got the cream, ha! Now, 23 years later, I can see it all with some perspective. I’ve worked on many other TV shows and movies but the “classic” trilogy is still up there as one of the finest pieces of entertainment ever made. In recent years I started doing appearances at shows and conventions and meeting fans. It really brought home what it means to so many people around the world. It will be remembered and enjoyed centuries after I’m gone. No matter what else happens in my career, I can say I at least made a difference in some small way and put my little stamp on celluloid. It’s very gratifying.
Lightsabre – Your work as an animator and puppeteer has been featured in numerous films including Toy Story 2, A Bugs Life, Jurassic Park 3 and the Muppet movies, and yet you are internationally best remembered for your role as Nien Nunb in Return of the Jedi. How do you feel about that?
MQ – Well actually I encourage that myself. Nien is very likable and has been seen by almost everyone who watches movies. I worked very hard to make him real and not “puppety” and the fact that most people did not know he was even a puppet is the greatest compliment. Also, when people ask me what I’ve done that they might know, it’s much easier to tell them I did the co-pilot in the Millennium Falcon with Lando than trying to explain I was third chicken from the left in the Great Muppet Caper or whatever. So I can live with that, no problem! Nien and the Star Wars fans have been very good to me and for that I shall be eternally grateful.
Lightsabre – Tell us something of your career. How did you begin in entertainment and what led you to where you are today.
MQ – Oh boy…. well without pre-empting my autobiography, let’s see….The short answer, the Force led me here and it was my destiny. The long answer, I think I was born with a fascination for performing. My first puppet was probably my teddy bear that I would try to manipulate and bring to life. As a child I put on puppet shows in a small portable puppet stage and also had a magic act and even went to a few auditions. Also, as I was growing up, my sister was an actor and singer on the stage and would appear in Pantomimes (for the non Brits reading this, English musical comedy extravaganza’s traditionally put on at Christmas time set to stories of Cinderella or Puss-in-Boots etc.). I used to love hanging around backstage seeing how the curtains worked, trapdoors and costumes. Something I’ll never forget is wandering under the stage during one performance wondering where the sound of this thumping mechanical machinery was coming from. Imagine my surprise when I found out it was the chorus girls tap dancing out one of their numbers in perfect rhythm above my head! It must have been around that time I knew I wanted to have a career in showbiz. There was always a lot of physical and visual comedy in those shows. Stan Laurel and Charlie Chaplin cut their teeth on shows very similar to these when they started out in England. Also, perhaps it’s in my blood to begin with?
My Irish Grandmother, I believe was a cousin to Maureen O’ Sullivan, the actress who played Jane in those classic Tarzan movies. Maureen’s daughter was Mia Farrow, so I guess for a while I was related to Andre Previn and Frank Sinatra and almost Woody Allen…Hmmmm…okay that’s too scary to think about. Where was I?…Oh yes. Then The Muppet Show came along in 1976! I was hooked, became obsessed and needed to learn how these puppets were built and performed. I began to teach myself to make puppets through trial and error and would practice in front of the mirror. I couldn’t believe it when I learned The Muppet Show was not only made in England, but a short bus ride away from my home. The bus literally would take me from door to door for 50 pence! Now do you see what I mean by destiny? I was 15 at the time and I would take days off school, bribe my way in the studio gate past security and the rest, as they say is history!
Lightsabre – Given your many functions on the set of Jedi and your later career as an animator for Pixar and Lucasfilm you are one of the few performers to work on both trilogies. What are the differences twenty years later in the production techniques, and does it still `feel’ like a Star Wars film?
MQ – It is certainly nice to feel like I’m one of the few links between the old and the new trilogies. What I do love about the new production techniques is the flexibility it brings. Freedom to make choices we never used to have. Now the line is blurred between pre-production, the shoot and post production. In the old days, everything hinged on the shoot. You had to get the shot by say, 7pm because they would have to wrap that set and move on to another stage the next day. If the puppet was starting to rip, well too bad. You had to make it work and the cost per minute was phenomenal. That was a lot of pressure, but also a lot of fun. The adrenalin and camaraderie of being on set was important. It also kept you pretty fit. If something was missing or not working the way it should, they may have had a few days to do pick-ups and very rarely a re-shoot. What you got in the can was it! No going back. Now a movie can be almost written during the post production process. With this freedom comes responsibility though. By that I mean it’s harder for a film maker to commit to a script ahead of time and stay true and focused to that original vision. It’s much easier to digitally replace sets, move characters to different parts of the screen, re-shoot (and re-write) a single character’s dialogue against a green screen or even replace them digitally with a computer animation on a whim. These days, you sit behind a computer being antisocial and getting fat. It doesn’t really feel like you are putting a performance together.
For example, take the Yoda scenes in Return of the Jedi. We all got together and rehearsed with Frank Oz for several days. We were on the same page and knew the performance inside out. We were camera ready. I think we shot most of those scenes in about 3 days. On Attack Of The Clones, I had a 4 second Yoda shot to animate that must have taken about 4 weeks to complete. It was a simple head and shoulders reaction shot. I kept thinking “Give me the puppet and we can get this done in less than an hour!”. I missed the smell of burning gels on the lights, the mysterious hammering and buzzing of wood from the carpenters between takes as they steal a few minutes to work on building the next set. The sound of the bell as you go for a take and the rattle of the camera as this fragile film clatters past the lens….. And I always got so excited when the morning breakfast trolley came around with my greasy egg and bacon roll. I guess making the two movies felt VERY different.
Lightsabre – Working on Jedi you covered every conceivable type of alien on every world – Jabba on Tatooine, Ewoks on Endor, Yoda on Dagobah and Ackbarr and of course Nien in the Death Star battle. I can’t think of anyone who has been to so many worlds, apart from the main cast. What were those many environments like to work in?
MQ – I was excited to see them all. Such wonderful design and craftsmanship went into making those. I swear they looked real to the human eye. I was sure that if I walked up these steps or went around a particular corner it would take me somewhere else. Of course, upon exploration, I would often find a ten foot drop where the set would end, a blinding lamp shining to illuminate part of the set and perhaps several electricians playing cards passing the time. Jabba’s palace was the first main creature set to shoot on. There were a lot of people crammed into a pretty small set. Remember you not only have the actors and creatures but also the entire crew and cameras and lights. The sets were designed with removable walls so that helped with space. Many a time the sets would get very hot with all the lights and quite smokey as they would need to pump in smoke for atmosphere.
I remember during one lunchtime going for a walk on Dagobah on the big Star Wars stage and started to panic because I could feel myself getting lost. Yoda’s hut was very small but intimate. That was quite a nice contrast in some ways. Seeing a life-size Millennium Falcon on set was a wonder to behold. I would usually make sure I checked out all the ships and shuttles, inside and out (I had to make sure the seats were nice and comfy for the actor’s, right?). The Emperor’s Throne Room was awesome too. It looked much bigger on screen actually. I loved the design of the briefing room, all that white everywhere. The Ewok Village was pretty huge. I remember having to lay on the ground amongst all the Ewoks so I could hide and do my little baby Ewok. In some ways the Falcon cockpit was the toughest for me though. Mainly because I was flat on my back, wedged into the floor with just a small TV monitor so I could see what the camera was shooting. They had to lower the puppet onto me. Then the rocking began. Stage hands rocking and rolling the Falcon to simulate motion and flight. Ohhhh man… Lando, you gotta install sick bags on that thing!!!
Lightsabre – What would you change about your Star Wars experience if you could go back and do it again?
MQ – We weren’t allowed to take pictures. A few would have been nice. One of me with Nien would have been great for the archives. I might have gotten involved in the fan and convention scene a little earlier as that has been so much fun. I was still pretty shy and quiet back then. I would have liked to have gotten to know more people, but then again we were working and there wasn’t really time to do that. That’s what has been so nice about doing conventions. There are several performers I know better now than I did back then. That’s pretty cool.
Lightsabre – As an accomplished puppeteer you must have been in your element on the set of Jedi, and as well as performing Nien you also assisted with Woklings, Admiral Ackbarr, as Frank Oz’s lead assistant for Yoda and inside Jabba the Hutt. For a film mixing puppets with actors, unlike Dark Crystal which was entirely puppets, what was the atmosphere on the set like?
MQ – Every movie has it’s own atmosphere anyway. Puppets and creatures need special attention and take longer to shoot. That was all built into the Dark Crystal schedule. The same goes for The Great Muppet Caper. Jim Henson and Frank Oz knew how to do puppets. They understood not only the limitations and cheats you had to do but also their strength and power. Puppets can communicate on a level humans often cannot, so shooting puppets is very specialised and many director’s and producers don’t understand that. On Jedi, we knew we had to fit into the real human Star Wars world. The puppets had to come second to the main actors. Even something as simple as what type of camera they used affected our ability to see what we were shooting. On the Muppet and Dark Crystal movies they used Panavision cameras. When they “turned over” to shoot, using video assist, we could at least see a flickery version of what we were shooting on the monitors. On Jedi they used Ariflex cameras I believe. When they turned over, I could hardly see anything on the monitor and almost had to just “feel it”. I remember asking the camera crew about it at the time and was told that this system let more light through the eyepiece so that the Director 
of Photography could see what he was shooting better.
Of course that wasn’t really a satisfactory answer as I really wanted to see what I was doing too but this wasn’t a Muppet film. It was Star Wars and I was happy to be part of it. Things have changed so much now that they have what seems to be perfectly clear video feeds no matter what they are shooting on. Kids today don’t know how good they’ve got it!!! WAIT- DID I JUST SAY THAT?? Finally, the crew still understood that we all wanted to make this as good as it can be, so whether you were an actor, in a mask or some puppet creature everyone still had the respect of each other. Overall, it was very slick, professional and efficient and each person was expected to behave accordingly, and rightly so.
Lightsabre – You have had a unique career as a puppeteer and animator. Tell us of the parallels between the two skills. Is an animator the modern equivalent of a puppeteer?
MQ – An animator could be seen as that, but mostly I would say that is not really the case yet. I’m very thankful I have both skills. I think one actually helps with the other. Puppetry is an ancient art form going back thousands of years. Animation is not much more than 100 years old. They are similar in that you are bringing life to something that otherwise would not move and think. They are different in that with puppetry, you get real time spontaneous performance, mistakes, happy accidents and everything. Just like real life. It is very hard to get that in animation. Especially with animation directors over your shoulder pushing and pulling you in different directions, each trying to get you to do it their way. But for it to have real soul, it must come from you, the animator. Only then can the spirit and life of the character really shine through. Right now, most computer animation is not real time. Far from it in fact. Often you have to render your few seconds of a shot, go have coffee and come back 30 minutes later to see how it looks…. and then most likely have to change it anyway. For me it needs to be completely interactive, real time. That way you are not afraid to experiment with a performance and can take risks because that risk will not waste an entire day if it doesn’t work. There are a few companies developing real time animation for puppeteers. You put on gloves and various devices so it’s like virtual puppetry, using a form of motion capture. There is resistance against using that in the industry and effects houses unfortunately. Mostly because the people that run computer graphics companies or work there as animation directors and supervisors have come from an animation background. They’ve invested years and tens of thousands of dollars in 
schooling at CalArts or where ever. It’s all they know. The last thing they want is someone like me coming along and shaking their world with a whole new way of working. I’ve actually been told by some of them that real time performance animation would be great but the animators are not puppeteers and would be afraid or intimidated by it and couldn’t learn it. I’m not against keyframe animation and it really does have it’s place, but I think the industry has a whole lot of growing up to do before the audience can really feel comfortable they are watching a natural performance and not be aware it is all CG. Gollum came close and people reacted favourably, so there is hope out there.
Finally, when given a character like Nien Nunb for example, you are responsible for bringing the entire thing to life. You tell the guys on eyes and ears what you want during the take and shoot it. The director is happy, everyone is happy and you move on to the next scene. However, I cannot understand why that doesn’t happen in a CG environment. Suddenly all these middle men have to justify their jobs and tell you how to do it, down to the last frame, almost like they are afraid to trust you. They each try to get something of themselves into your animation and can tweak a shot to death. Before you know it, you end up with something less dynamic that has less soul. Like acting by committee, you know, too many cooks. Oh, and it takes forever for them to final a shot. I don’t get it. Why could I be trusted to deliver a close up 20 years ago but not now, after having had even more experience? One “boss” of mine never could give me a straight answer to that one. It comes purely down to the way the studios are set up. It’s all they know. I honestly think it is cheaper and faster to shoot real puppets or use real time motion capture performance than this “traditional” keyframe way. I also believe it gives a better, truer performance. There are a lot of very talented computer animators out there and they are wonderful people so my intention is not to diminish what they do in any way. Oh yes, most studios expect you to be some sort of UNIX language computer geek, using all these cryptic commands just to open up your shot. I wasted more time figuring out technical stuff at these places than actually animating. That’s just crazy. I’m not a programmer and nor should I be. It would be like saying to Alec Guinness after a take “That was great Alec, we just want to do one more but before that, can you just do these tax spreadsheets for me on the computer taking into account depreciation of assets”! The moment is lost, right? Give me a cuddly friendly Mac interface and I’m happy. Okay, I’m off my soap box now…. (There goes my chance of being hired by these guys ever again).
Lightsabre – There’s talk of a Star Wars TV series. Would you be interested in a position on the show, either as an actor or as an animator?
MQ – Did I mention I also direct? I could bring a lot to the series. I just need to communicate that to the producers. It would be so cool to do Nien Nunb again. Puppetry technology has advanced so much in recent years, as has real time puppeteer computer performance, so I think it would be a great marriage. Oh, I also act so they would be getting their money’s worth! We shall see eh?
Lightsabre – What do you foresee in the future for yourself?
MQ – A bowl of cereal…maybe an afternoon nap!…what?…oh you meant after that? Well I’m happy to report I’ve been doing more performing of late. Acting on stage and independent films. I worked with the Muppets again on ABC’s The Muppets Wizard of OZ. I’m also currently working on a puppet series performing a principle character and even built 2 puppets for that. Later on I’ll be setting up my own production company and using that to develop and create projects and characters of my own. It’s a pretty exciting time. There is so much that hasn’t been done yet. I think I’m in a good place to begin that finally.
Lightsabre – A quick question about our site Lightsabre. Any comments?
MQ – Are you sure you spelled it correctly? I thought it was “Lightsaber”? Ohh…right, the British spelling…heh heh… There is so much on that site. Lots to explore and plenty of creativity and man hours have gone into it. That’s what it’s all about though…do what you love and love what you do. Long may Lightsabre reign!!!
Lightsabre – It’s been a great interview, and thanks for being our guest. Just one final question. Jabba, Yoda and Nien are seated at the controls of the Falcon, but can’t get it to start. Yoda uses the force to levitate the freighter and fly it away and Jabba threatens to drop it into the Sarlacc pit unless it does as he says. How does Nien get it to fly?
MQ – Simple. Only Nien knows all the tricks and secrets of the Falcon. Just below the steering yoke is a little red button. Hit that and a carefully situated Jabba gets ejected through a hole in the floor. He made the Falcon too front heavy anyway! Then Nien and Yoda can valet park the Falcon at a bar in Mos Eisley, go for a drink and shoot the breeze about the good ol’ days!
Thanks guys and good luck. See ya around!!!
This interview was originally posted on lightsabre.co.uk on 16th April 2005.
